What the Heck Is Neurofeedback? Training the Brain for ADHD, Anxiety & Wellbeing

Okay. Well, hello mindcakers. Today we are joined by Suzanne and Helen from Neurofeedback Scotland to help us separate the neuroscience from the nonsense, the hope from the hype, and to explore whether this is a useful tool for our mental well being. Hello Suzanne and Helen.

>> Suzanne: Good morning.

>> Lee Crontpon: How are you?

>> Suzanne: Good, good. How are you?

>> Lee Crontpon: I'm I'm good. Are you, are you in the office?

>> Suzanne: No, we're both at home. We work from home on Mondays.

>> Lee Crontpon: Right, okay. The weather's been a bit, bit if he hasn't it? I thought, I thought we were going to be wicked witch of the west last night. I thought the house was going to take off from Kansas. I mean it was pretty, pretty wild. I don't know where it was with you but.

>> Helen: Well, I'm down by the shore so. Yes, it was.

>> Lee Crontpon: Well, yeah, I should explain that I have come and done a session with you.

>> Suzanne: Yep.

>> Lee Crontpon: Which we'll get into later. And I have tried to explain this to Paul. However, if you had to explain neurofeedback to a sceptical but curious friend in a pub, how would you describe what's actually happening in your brain?

>> Suzanne: Well, it would depend on how many drinks the person had had. How I would answer that question. But it basically it's quite a gentle therapy which helps the brain to help itself. So if you've had a traumatic experience, if you've got ADHD, autism, etc. The brain becomes what we call dysregulated. So it just doesn't function optimally. So neurofeedback is a technology based therapy where we read the brain signals, it's fed into a real time eeg, into the computer software and onto the feedback which the client watches on the screen. So it's working real time to mirror what's happening in the brain. And when the brain can see itself operating, it can then work to fix itself and that then becomes a process of becoming self regulating for the brain. When the brain regulates just works better.

>> Lee Crontpon: I must admit when we first started talking about this I assumed it was another talking therapy and Then obviously I came to see you and realised it was something very, very different when you started sticking sensors on my head. So the. So there was different scenarios you could pick. I picked, I think it was walking through a forest. So the idea is that I'm concentrating on the surroundings and, what's happening on the screen. And there was deer and there was birds and there was this and there was that. And if my mind wanders from that, then the image is blurred, goes misty, and so the brain then cheques itself and gone, oh, hang on a minute, I've gone off on a tangent, which we don't often do on this show, do we, Paul? Yeah, I've gone off on a tangent and then, like you say, regulates itself to bring it back, to start to put it in focus. Is that kind of very layman's way of putting it?

>> Helen: Well, yes, as effectively doing that, because that's, that's what you're. That's what your brain's doing in real time. So the, the technology, if you like, is allowing your brain to see itself in real time. So being distracted is a real time event. But also older patterns that are in your brain are still happening as you sit in the chair and watch the screen. So the technology is helping your brain to see its patterns that have been there for quite a long time.

>> Lee Crontpon: Uh-huh. And am I right in saying that M. I'm jumping about it, so I've already gone off script, but am I right in saying that they. You were mentioning that the sensors go on different parts of your head or your brain, your head, depending on what it is that you're in a vertical commas treating?

>> Suzanne: Yeah, absolutely. The brain is split into sort of 20 different sections and each part of the brain is responsible for a different function within the body. So we work on a client's symptoms and then we target that area of the brain that we want to train and improve. And that's why we put the sensors on different parts of the brain to work different parts of the brain.

Barnett uses sensors on the forehead to monitor mood and anxiety

>> Lee Crontpon: Okay, I'm going to ask a practical question here. Obviously me coming where you've got lots of surface area to stick sensors. If someone with a big booth on came to your, to your offices and said, I'd like to give it a go. Let's, let's use Paul's example. I mean, you know, just anyone that.

>> Lee Crompton: You might as well, since I'm here. Right.

>> Lee Crontpon: So, how, how on earth would you stick the sensors to look at that, Barnett, how would you fit the sensors to that. Please tell me you'd shave little bits off and stick them on.

>> Helen: No, no. You have to find a piece of a, a piece of scalp that is careless. But obviously some people have follicles very close together and it can sometimes be difficult. But, the paste and the, the gels that we use are designed to kind of keep the scalp clean so that it's free of any kind of oil. That's just a very naturally occurring oil in our skin and it attaches quite well. So we've had lots of different, different types of hairstyles and m. We manage to be honest with you, there's people with no hair that present some m. Of the biggest problems. So.

>> Lee Crontpon: Really?

>> Lee Crompton: How about that?

>> Lee Crontpon: Yeah, I mean, I would, I'm looking at Paul's head. I mean, I would say that looks pretty tightly knit to me.

>> Lee Crompton: Can maybe get something around here?

>> Lee Crontpon: Yeah. Maybe help with whatever. What, what would you stick on if you were helping, if you could, if you would. What would that help? If he was stuck on. Around the, around the top there and his. Top of the forehead. Can you get any on there?

>> Helen: Yes, we use those sites quite regularly actually. And that's your. We have your executive functioning where you kind of your control centre you might, you might call it. So, we use, we use sites, placements of the sensors on the forehead for things like regulating emotions, and worries very generally.

>> Lee Crontpon: There you go, Paul. So you can. Even though you've got a big old booth on, you can still. You still get your neurofeedback.

>> Lee Crompton: I'm not worried about losing my hair anyway. So.

>> Helen: No, no, no shaving, no. Staples.

>> Lee Crompton: No.

Is neurofeedback training the brain to do something new or reminding it

>> Lee Crontpon: So I guess the question that I was interested in, or, interested in all the questions, but this one in particular is neurofeedback training the brain to do something new or is it reminding it how to do something it's forgotten?

>> Helen: A bit of both.

>> Suzanne: A bit of both. So as I said, it's. It's picking up those brain waves under the surface of the scalp. The brain is just electrical activity, so it's picking that up from the surface of the scalp and be fed into the EEG and enabling the person to see how their brain is operating. So yes and no to that one. It's working on the conscious part of the brain but also the unconscious.

>> Lee Crontpon: Unconscious.

>> Suzanne: Yeah, of it. And most of what we do is driven by our unconscious and that's the bit that we need to tap into real changes to take place within the brain.

>> Helen: It's not that you're Changing the brain to do something new. M. Because that would kind of suggest you're going to be a different person at the end of a session. But it's really, it's really just creating the conditions in which the brain can heal itself and do what it normally does optimally. So you're still, you, you're still operating the same way, but you just you're functioning much better.

How many sessions do you normally recommend and how much spaced out are they

>> Lee Crontpon: M. I know when we talked you were saying that, well, you can, you can say, but how many, how many sessions do you would you normally recommend and how, how much are they spaced out in order to get the maximum kind of effect?

>> Helen: It's quite an important part actually of the therapy is regular attendance. So we recommend no less than one session a week. And we always say to clients to plan for 20 sessions. And that's based on research also what we've observed ourselves with, clients, because it can take some clients, obviously everyone's different. So some clients show improvement very early on and others might take a little bit longer. so once a week, 20 sessions. That's the kind of basic recommendation.

>> Lee Crontpon: Okay, well, Paul's a big teacher's pet, so we probably only M. Need 5. Probably come in and smash it. Don't you Paul?

>> Lee Crompton: Well, you know, I don't want to blow my own trumpet, but yeah, there is, he does, there is evidence of that. Yeah.

>> Lee Crontpon: Yeah, we had, who was the, the, the myopathy woman.

>> Lee Crontpon: You had to do your umlas and all that and you had, he had, he had perfect tongue posture, he had turf. Perfect sleep. Did. We had the sleep man on. You were perfect at that as well. So I would imagine. Yeah, if Paul did come, he, he'd probably need four or five sessions max.

>> Lee Crompton: I would have thought I would still plan for 20 though.

>> Lee Crontpon: Plan for 20.

>> Helen: Plan for 20. You might not get. Need to go there, but yes, that's what you'd say. It's time to kind of work with people's expectations as well. You know, we don't want to say you'll be great in four, in four sessions when we know that that's unlikely. And the reason for the repeating sessions is because the brain is very good at going back to where it used to be because it's where it's familiar and it's the training, it's the repeating of the training that helps the brain to the new patterns to concretize and stay the new way.

>> Lee Crontpon: And like you say, if you've got a fortnight between sessions, then it kind of just falls back into you almost starting from zero again if you've got too long between sessions. I guess.

>> Helen: Yeah, I would even say not zero, but certainly some M regression can happen. It's completely natural. and yeah, we kind of say, please don't take holidays or too many.

>> Suzanne: Breaks, especially in the early stages when we're trying to establish placements, the frequency that we're training the brain at. So we always say to people in the early stages, don't plan a holiday in the first couple of weeks. Just wait till you come back and then get a good run at it.

What got the pair of you into the world of neurofeedback

>> Lee Crompton: Okay.

>> Lee Crontpon: One of the questions I wanted to ask was on the basis I'd never heard of neurofeedback. What got the pair of you into the world of neurofeedback? How have you both ended up here?

>> Helen: Well, I sort of discovered it first when. Not certainly I did discover it, but, it was a completely chance, ah, event. My colleague Frank for again couldn't attend, a training event and he'd said, you know, I've got this thing on. Would you like to go all paid for? I said, I'll take that. So went along to. It was a very casual event, actually, and it was neurofeedback. And I didn't know what it was, but I guess like most therapists, you're always looking for the thing that really works and that really helps people. And I just found it amazing. I had an experience myself that no other therapy had kind of touched on. So I was just blown away by it and I've never looked back.

>> Lee Crontpon: Wow.

>> Helen: Just. That's all I do now, Ron, nearly. It's not quite exclusively neurofeedback. So.

>> Suzanne: And from that also, Helen had obviously gone to that event, decided that she wanted to train in neurofeedback and was looking for guinea pigs. So I legally offered myself to. To help her, to help me. And my initial experience was I was a. We both did our psychology degrees helmet down the route of psychotherapy. I went down the route of education and then went down the route of becoming a play therapist. And. And Helen said, no, you've got to train in this as well. But the thing that sort of made me really, keen to learn to do it and to help people as well was my own experience with migraines. I suffered quite badly with migraines, quite frequent and quite severe. And, within the early stages of working with neurofeedback, the migraines were less severe and less frequent. So that was a big kit, a big indicator for me that it was Such a powerful therapy if it can help with. Because medication wasn't working, etc. So yeah, it was a non invasive therapy that really made a difference.

Are there any other conditions that could benefit from neurofeedback

>> Lee Crontpon: We say about migraines there. Are there any other particular conditions or types of people that could benefit from this treatment? What sort of. We touched on. I know you mentioned when I was at adhd, but what other types of conditions would neurofeedback help?

>> Helen: I don't think I've met any condition that we can't help to some degree. It's not the condition as such, maybe it's the circumstances that a person might be in. But the main ones are adhd, epilepsy and seizures, anxiety, depression. Those are the types of clients we see most regularly with those kinds of conditions. And, anxieties at the base of quite a lot of things like OCD and even, pain. Pain is quite a big one as well. people, joint pain and just aches kind of. They'd have an unknown source, which is. We would take the position that it's a psychological source. And neurofeedback quite often helps pain. Very often, in fact, I would say.

What is the strongest evidence currently support neurofeedback for ADHD

>> Lee Crontpon: So what does the strongest evidence currently support neurofeedback for? Where is the evidence and where is it mainly? Maybe a little bit lacking.

>> Helen: It's mainly with ADHD again. So that's probably why a lot of people do come to us that have got ADHD or parents bring their children, because that's kind of where neurofeedback as a therapeutic began. It began in epilepsy, moved into adhd and since then, since it was realised that it was a therapeutic, then research thankfully has been a bit more widespread. But in the last year, published research is mostly being ADHD again, but also just, I think I was saying anxiety, depression, even Parkinson's disease. I think I'd quite like to see Alzheimer's and dementia there as well. There is some research there, but just performance as well. Actually, in the last year there's been a few. Obviously, you know, sports, sports people come to us as well, not just to improve their performance, but it's usually because there's been some kind of injury or event in their lives that they're trying to get back on track.

>> Lee Crontpon: Do some people not respond at all? And how do you manage expectations around that?

>> Suzanne: yeah, people that come to us who are quite heavily medicated or continually changing their medication, it can often be hard to work with those conditions because the medication obviously affects the brain and we're trying to work with the brain. So there's quite a lot of changes happening. So we always say to people, we wait till you've, you know, if you're on medication, wait till it's quite a stable, time. And also people are maybe not aware of what's actually changing within themselves. So maybe people who are autistic might not see the changes. So we always ask if they've got a carer or somebody to support them through this journey, that they're there kind of observing and just noticing any changes within that person. Also with. We work a lot with children, so it's hard for children to report back on what they feel, what they experience in the session, and after the session. So we rely heavily on parents, caregivers to really take note of what they see, the differences within that child to report back to us.

Are there any risks or side effects or reasons people shouldn't try neurofeedback

>> Lee Crontpon: Are there any risks or side effects or reasons why people shouldn't try neurofeedback?

>> Helen: No. No would be the sort of easiest answer. But people do sometimes experience a negative effect or a negative kind of, they have a negative experience. So for example, a headache or feel a little bit nauseous, those kinds of things. But we tend to refer to them as detox effects. Because something's changing and if something's changing in your body a bit like you give up caffeine, you know, most people wouldn't give up caffeine without some kind of negative effect. So it's a bit, a bit like that. So whilst we've had a couple of people maybe over the last seven or eight years that, you know, didn't come back because of that effect, it's very, very rare that the experience is anything other than just a bit of a detox, like, some kind of alteration in the physiology that's a little bit uncomfortable. But the vast majority of people, in fact almost everyone reports positive effects after the first, second or third session. They see really quite quickly the improvements and we get, we've, we often refer to as the wow effect because people literally say wow, that's amazing. After the early, early stages. So that's the vast majority of our, of the reports and our experience.

>> Lee Crontpon: I know, I know from my own experience with you. I mean, I can't remember how long I was in the chair now because time seemed to stand still. But I did, I did the walk through kind of the, the forest.

>> Helen: Yeah.

>> Lee Crontpon: And then I did some kind of. It was more of a video game one where my want of better expression, my brain was controlling this. So if I was concentrating properly, the speed of the, of the Vehicle sped up and again, if I was not, if I wandered then it would slow down and it would, you know, the background would get more hazy and whatever. Yeah, I just remember it was a very weird feeling afterwards. I was just very kind of, I was tired but I wasn't like exhausted tired. I was just like zoned out tired.

>> Lee Crontpon: Like I suppose you've been not concentrating but as if you've been, you know, you've had a session where you're having to concentrate on something and then afterwards you're like my brain just needed a rest. I think after, after doing. And I was maybe doing it for what, half an hour, 20 minutes? Half an hour?

>> Suzanne: Well, about 20 minutes. We kind of initially we do a 20 minute trial session of the actual neurofeedback in our initial consultation. And again it's just to let the brain, the brain's doing something quite different from what it normally does. You're not just passively watching a screen like you're watching tv. The brain, as I said, the unconscious part of the brain is picking up all the little nuances, all the little flickers that are going on in the screen and the brain is like, oh, this is a bit different. So the brain can get a little bit tired initially. It's like if you hadn't been to the gym for a long time and you went to, you know, do a session at the gym, your muscles would get tired. But it does build up the more you do it and the brain is just a muscle like any other. So yeah, it just that training.

>> Helen: Yeah, yeah. Tiredness does, is an indication that something's happening. Obviously extreme tiredness is something we wouldn't want and we would, we monitor all the time to avoid that. But, but tiredness, yes, is just an indication that your brain is working.

>> Lee Crontpon: Oh, there was clearly something different. Yeah.

>> Lee Crompton: Like when you were at school and you did your exams and you came out the exam hall and you just kind of went, oh my God, you know, you've been concentrating for an.

>> Lee Crontpon: Hour and a half, two hours or whatever.

Where do you see neurofeedback fit into mental health care over the next decade

Well, I'm going to ask one more question before we get into the next bit. So where do you see neurofeedback fit into mental health care over the next 5 or 10 years time? Do you think it become more mainstream?

>> Suzanne: Well, what we would like is for more people to be aware of neurofeedback as a therapeutic option. Right now the difficulty is that people don't know about it. A lot of people read the book the body keeps the score by Basil, Basil van der Kolk. And there's a chapter in there about neurofeedback. So a lot of people inquire after they've read that book. yeah. So for it just to be more widespread, to be a therapeutic option and for people to know about what it is, how it works and that it's available in Scotland. I think it's more common in the States and in Europe. But Scotland, uk, it's a little bit more unknown as a therapeutic option.

>> Lee Crontpon: Now. I know having looked into this, there's, there's obviously science backing this up and you know, trials and, and what have you. However, you did mention when I was in this is mainly for Paul's benefit.

Bio resonance is another technology based on electromagnetic waves from the body

You did mention when I was in that there's another kind of slightly more woo woo side of things that you do. Do you want to talk a bit about what was that called? Because I've forgotten completely. What was that called? And what does that do?

>> Helen: That's bio resonance.

>> Lee Crontpon: Bio resonance, Paul. I can see Paul. Are you writing that down, Paul?

>> Lee Crompton: Yeah.

>> Lee Crontpon: What is it and what does it do?

>> Helen: It's basically another technology based therapy which is based on the electromagnetic kind of waves from the body. So it's picking up the frequencies that are attributed, if you like, to all parts of your body. So your organs vibrate at certain frequency and this machine can pick that up and it can pick up if it's vibrating too high or too low, which would be an indication of potential illness as opposed to a diagnosis. So it's, it can work very well as a preemptive therapy for overall health, including psychological health. And we've been finding that it's working very well on its own, but also in conjunction with neurofeedback.

>> Lee Crontpon: That sounds right up.

>> Helen: Yeah. Well, we've, we're fascinated by it. Have to say me, we say it's woo woo because just because it's quite difficult to explain. It's, it's based a lot on quantum physics. We're big fans of Dr. Joe Dispenza and he's, he would be very good at explaining quantum physics. But, but it picks up these frequencies because everything's connected. So the, the machine, words, expressions, us, we're all connected to each other and everything vibrates at a frequency. So the technology is picking it up. Identifying areas of just being out of kilter, I suppose is the best way to put it.

>> Lee Crompton: So sounds a bit like technological Reiki almost.

>> Helen: That's a very good way to Put it. I shall be using that.

>> Lee Crontpon: Stick that on the poster, Helen.

>> Lee Crompton: You can have that for free. That one. Yeah.

>> Helen: Stealing it. I'm stealing it.

>> Lee Crontpon: Sorry. If Paul was to come along for a session.

>> Helen: Yep.

>> Lee Crontpon: What would you do to him? Does it. Do you connect him up to a machine? How long does that take? What, what does that, what does a session look like?

>> Helen: A session's not just unlike a, neurofeedback session. You can sit in a chair and you would be attached with a, headband.

>> Suzanne: the bioresonins. The harness is put on the forehead where there are several little sensors that pick up the energetic waves within the body. And it would just initially do, it's called a reactivity test which tests for over 7000 different imbalances within the body right down to a cellular level. And from that reading it would recommend a particular programme where best effects would be for that session. So it could be your spine, it could be your meridians, it could be your chakras, it could be your organs, it could be your chromosomes. And then we would go and do a reading within that profile and send those corrective frequencies to the body to see what uptake there was of the body to just obviously correct those imbalances within the body.

>> Lee Crontpon: Wow. Paul. I guess Paul's. Yeah, I can. I know what's going on inside Paul's head. He's like, this sounds amazing.

>> Lee Crompton: It does sound amazing. Yeah.

>> Suzanne: You're welcome to come and have a session and, and experience it and see what it feels like for you.

>> Lee Crontpon: We should do that. Paul, why don't we, why don't we do an episode.

>> Lee Crontpon: From Glasgow.

>> Lee Crontpon: Where you're having a, you're having a session.

>> Lee Crompton: Bioresonance session. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Suzanne: We've both experienced quite profound effects again with the bioresonance therapy. I've got a bit of a dodgy knee and when I run the, the biofeedback or the bioresonance, there's a profile for arthritis and I, I do that and it's almost miraculous as to the difference in the, the pain levels and the quality of the knee.

>> Helen: Yeah.

>> Lee Crontpon: Right, well, we'll, we'll book. Will book in and we'll come and do an episode.

>> Helen: Cool.

>> Lee Crontpon: From, from your hq, if that's okay. Later in the year.

>> Suzanne: Yeah, Sooner rather than later.

>> Helen: Yeah, definitely.

>> Lee Crontpon: Let's do that. Let's do that. And if anyone wants to find out more about you and what you do, what's the best way to find out more or get in contact with you.

>> Suzanne: It would be our website, which is www.neurofeedback.scott. we're based in Glasgow, just near Charing Cross.

>> Helen: You just contacting us by email is actually quite good. Addresses are on the website and we usually have consens of further information that we have chats that way. But we're also very happy to chat to people on the phone if that's what they like.

>> Lee Crontpon: Yeah, good stuff. Well, Suzanne and Helen, unless there's anything else you would like to add, that's been. Thank you for giving up your time and joining us and telling us all about neurofeedback.

>> Suzanne: Yes.

>> Lee Crontpon: Enjoy the rest of your day.

>> Suzanne: Thank you for having us. It's been lovely chatting and.

>> Lee Crontpon: And we'll see you soon.

Paul came into this completely blind about neural feedback

So, Paul, you came into this completely blind in that you had no backstory or no nothing about what, what neurofeedback was about. So how do you feel after listening to that?

>> Lee Crompton: I'm very intrigued by it all. So I didn't know anything about, not even just what neural feedback was. I didn't even know who we were chatting to today.

>> Lee Crontpon: I know we turned in completely blind.

>> Lee Crompton: Yeah. So I literally clicked the, the link to, to join the zoom chat and then discovered what it was all about. So it really was like, learning about it completely fresh. So I didn't have time to do any research or any reading on it. And it's fascinating stuff. It just blows my mind that you can analyse parts of the brain and see the, the brain waves and that can sort of lead you to being able to retrain your brain to, to cope better with certain conditions or whatever it might be. I think they said there's 20 sections of the brain and each section kind of deals with different things. So like, if you are going there for ADHD or for anxiety or depression, it'll be a different part of your brain that they kind of need to focus on. I mean, that's just mental.

>> Lee Crontpon: I don't think they had enough senses for me because there's so much going on. So much going on.

>> Lee Crompton: But yeah, it's, it's absolutely fascinating. And, and I suppose it's like anything, if you train something long enough, it becomes a, habit, you know?

>> Lee Crontpon: Yeah.

>> Lee Crompton: Which is why they suggest that you go for so many sessions because it has to become something that you're constantly kind of working on. But you need to go to the session to be aware of when your mind starts to wander, to bring it back. And even though it's quite scientific, it reminds me a lot about other stuff that we've done. Like, you know, we say all this different stuff all kind of ties in with each other. Like that thing about meditation. And if your mind wanders, it's okay because your mind will do that. It's just training your mind. You know, if you're trying to meditate and your mind wanders, it's not failure, it's human. But it's then training your mind to get back to that meditative sort of state.

>> Lee Crontpon: Well, this, this is the thing I can kind of get on board as, as, as sceptical as I, you know, I am with some of these things. I can get on board with this because it logically. And I don't know whether I'm doing them a disservice or not by explaining it this way, but what I found was it was like real time meditation because you were concentrating on the thing, whether that was you walking through a forest or oh look, there's a deer over there, or oh look, there's a bird in the trees, or. And you, and as you walk through this forest, you're noticing the light coming through the trees and, and that. And you're. So you're mindful, you're. And you're in that moment. If you then wander from that the, it starts going a bit pixelated or a bit misty or in the, in the video game one, you like your car or your vehicle slows down or the track becomes a bit hazy or whatever and it's like your subconscious going, oh, I've, I've gone off piece deer, I've gone off track. And you. So it's the same as meditation. You bring it back to oh look, there's the deer and there's another. So you're almost like subconsciously training your brain because your brain, you're getting that real time feedback when your mind wanders.

>> Lee Crontpon: And your brain is recognising that visually and then automatically bringing it back. So from that perspective, and I can imagine having no scientific background whatsoever, but I can imagine if you're, if you keep doing that and training your brain to do that, then that would work. And I must say my session, I did feel, I felt great afterwards. I felt tired, but in a good way because I suppose you've been not concentrating, but you've been immersed in that environment and you know, your brainwaves have been measured and, and not managed. But yeah, your brain, the screen, the screen is basically the image that you're seeing is registering what's going on. In your brain in real time. And that is just.

>> Lee Crompton: Yes, this. Responding to what you're doing. thinking and, and everything right there and then.

>> Lee Crontpon: Yeah, yeah.

>> Lee Crompton: And as someone like you who loves a tangent. Love a tangent, it doesn't surprise me that you're knackered after a session like that because you are trying to focus on one thing. But it's also good because it does block some of the other noise out, I guess, doesn't it? So does sort of bring you to focus and, and stuff. So even though you're tired, you do feel. I can imagine you feeling quite refreshed and rebooted afterwards.

>> Lee Crontpon: Yeah, yeah, no, I, I, I thoroughly enjoyed it and I think we should go back and try another. Yeah, try another session.

I'm really looking forward to doing some digital Reiki sessions

Especially the woo woo stuff. I knew you'd be all that.

>> Lee Crompton: I know. I'm really looking forward to doing some, What was it? Bioresonance.

>> Lee Crontpon: Bio. Not residents.

>> Lee Crompton: Not residents. That's where the bios live. So it's bioresonance. Yeah.

>> Lee Crontpon: Ah, yeah.

>> Lee Crompton: Reiki is again. I know I keep coming back to this, but that's something that's been on my kind of hit list for a long time to go and have a Reiki session. So this sort of technological Reiki, or however I phrased it in the digital Reiki. Digital Reiki. So yeah, I'm, I'm very excited about that. It also gives us an excuse to actually meet in person as well. And we haven't done that since the. The bee therapy thing.

>> Lee Crontpon: We haven't done that since the bee therapy, which was what, the last summer?

>> Lee Crompton: Yeah, it was a long time ago.

>> Lee Crontpon: Then we both fell asleep. We did separate beds.

>> Lee Crompton: Separate beds.

>> Lee Crontpon: Genuinely separate beds.

>> Lee Crontpon: Did I mention, by the way, that when I was at the Mind, Body and Spirit Festival in Birmingham.

>> Lee Crontpon: That as I'm wandering around the different stores and listening to the bongo drums and wizards wandering around and one thing, another. There's one thing that I don't think I mentioned was that there was a menopause stand there selling Charlotte's bars.

>> Lee Crompton: No way.

>> Lee Crontpon: And I went, oh. I said, oh, hello. I spoke to the woman, you won't know me, but I'm mine. Cake podcast. And I. We've had you on, on the, on the, on the podcast, talking about the menopause bars and what have you. She says, oh, Charlotte. And I said, yeah, yeah. And so she went, oh, she's over there just getting a coffee.

>> Lee Crompton: No way.

>> Lee Crontpon: So I actually met Charlotte for the first time in person.

>> Lee Crompton: Wow.

>> Lee Crontpon: In Birmingham, which is slightly random, but she was there flaunting her bars, as it were. Yes, it was lovely to meet her.

I think it would be interesting to see if there is anything wrong with you

Anyway, let's talking of tangents. There you go. There's another one.

>> Lee Crompton: There's another tangent. So yeah, sometime in the not too distant future we'll be doing an episode from Charing Cross.

>> Lee Crontpon: I think it would be, interesting to see if there is anything wrong with you.

>> Lee Crompton: Yeah, I mean it's got to be right. I can't, I can't keep up this perfect streak that I have with all.

>> Lee Crontpon: The games now there'll be something. Won't matter. There's surely to God there's going to be something that you turn up. Because you mentioned spine, didn't she?

>> Lee Crontpon: So anything could be anything in your body now surely to God there must be something. I think it's going to be somewhere in your bottom half.

>> Lee Crontpon: Around the top of your bottom half, I'm guessing. Yeah, yeah.

>> Lee Crompton: Right, okay. Yeah.

>> Lee Crontpon: Talking to which, I don't know whether Ian McNabb m ever got through to the Tiny Penis Clinic, but

>> Lee Crompton: Who knows, I I wish him well in his, you know, journey endeavours.

>> Lee Crontpon: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Thank you to Susan and Helen for coming on this episode

Okay, well that's probably the perfect place to leave this episode. But no. Thank you to Susan. But no, thank you to Susan and Helen for coming on. Thank you as always for listening.

>> Lee Crompton: Take care of yourselves and each other.

>> Lee Crontpon: And in the words of Dr. Jan.

>> Lee Crompton: Don'T be a dick.